tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3777471469694473699.post973032756428707972..comments2023-12-31T02:38:15.848-05:00Comments on The Labyrinth: Anti 4th Edition?Labyrinthianhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15566448535889913865noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3777471469694473699.post-20857686657485353952010-11-18T05:48:30.585-05:002010-11-18T05:48:30.585-05:00First of all... *facepalm* where you said "Ad...First of all... *facepalm* where you said "Additionally healing surges just aren’t realistic.", I mean what part of D&D is 'realistic'? You have wizards that cast fireballs from nothing, not to mention dragons and any other humanoid or semi-sentient being in the game.<br /><br />Second, I agree with the whole it being crap because of the impossibility of dying, but, as you reach the later stages say "epic tier" you start fighting creatures like Demogorgon Prince of Demons and what not.<br /><br />Third, I believe that the ease of the game is entirely up to the DM. If your whining about how easy it is, would rather fight a pack of level 7 wolves or would you rather fight a few level 13 Eye Tyrants? The DM can force you to fight whatever he/she wants you to. You could be the most bad ass character ever, adn still the DM could have your character quite literally raped by some child off the street. So the game is only as easy as the DM wants it to be.<br /><br />To put it bluntly, the game isn't a figment of your imagination and creativity... It is the DM's.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3777471469694473699.post-65313247563990611492010-09-13T08:57:11.613-04:002010-09-13T08:57:11.613-04:00Thank you for posting that awful piece of artwork ...Thank you for posting that awful piece of artwork with the dragonborn cleric reading from a scroll; it reminds me of the lack of taste of even the artwork. The craptastic reptile ensures it doesn't even look like a D&D party. Appropriate for an edition that doesn't do D&D.Type VII Daemonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3777471469694473699.post-5412644541238893072010-06-27T18:40:25.860-04:002010-06-27T18:40:25.860-04:00Can't believe anyone's even discussiong sk...Can't believe anyone's even discussiong skill challenges. That whole system is fundamentally broken, WotC's released 3 seperate versions, not counting the 10 versions given in Dragon magazine.<br /><br />No way to use any of it, just too flawed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3777471469694473699.post-64023326669757156572010-04-22T11:08:14.380-04:002010-04-22T11:08:14.380-04:00Can't edit my post. Just want to make a correc...Can't edit my post. Just want to make a correction:<br /><br />"One of the biggest problems MANY PEOPLE have is with skill challenges that SEEM to hamstring roleplay."<br /><br />I am also going to add a postscript that the people who haven't played them seem to miss the part about improvising uses of different skills and the DM deciding what skill is in used based on the action players describe. Players are not supposed to say "I use Athletics to climb," or "I Diplomacy at the king." Of course, different tables can do things differently, but the system expects the players to take actions not use skills. Again, that gets glossed over far too often.DM Simonidesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3777471469694473699.post-75307805938814338312010-04-22T10:59:50.053-04:002010-04-22T10:59:50.053-04:00Labyrinthian: I respect that answer a lot, and I a...Labyrinthian: I respect that answer a lot, and I am glad to hear it. It is better than what I expected, so I apologize for some of my venom.<br /><br />The only point I would add is this: open-mindedness begins in one's own mind. Why not give the game a try if that is your goal. Every game reads differently than it plays and every table-top RPG allows for a lot of freedom in application and to insert one's own style. Judging it by reading the rule book is like judging a video game by reading the instruction manual.<br /><br />I will admit it is different from previous editions, but I will also say that running it - in play - feels a lot more like 2nd Edition, which I love, but streamlined and smoother. But it certainly didn't read that way when I first looked at it. One of the biggest problems have is with skill challenges that hamstring roleplaying. But based on reading one on paper, they do come across as very mechanical. It is only when played - through interaction and improv - that they begin to show their true colors, as a way to structure the freeform narrative without getting in the way of it.<br /><br />Just like in 3rd, you have the option of just "rolling a diplomacy check to alter mood," but that is a style choice. It is equally valid for a DM to listen to the roleplaying and say "it sounds threatening, roll an intimidate check to see if the guy buys it." The die rolls work with the roleplay, rather than against it, so that less creative players who struggle with the roleplay can still contribute because they have good ideas and that more creative, better roleplayers still feel the risk of catching the king on a bad day when he is feeling uncooperative. But none of that is obvious until you start to play one out.DM Simonidesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3777471469694473699.post-20844707069289970592010-04-22T01:36:31.411-04:002010-04-22T01:36:31.411-04:00"you completely invalidate your entire piece ..."you completely invalidate your entire piece in paragraph #3 by stating "...and as I said I haven’t played the game.""<br /><br />Matt James: I'm afraid we just can't agree here. For you to assert that someone can't have an opinion on something that they have read is foolish. I'm glad you think the site looks cool. Uh... you're welcome.<br /><br />DM Simonides: This site is relatively young and the topic, though much discussed at other places, had not been discussed here. I completely understand you being burnt out of the topic, many others have expressed the same opinion to me which is why we haven't continued the conversation here. As to why have any further discussion, I think that if people keep an open mind then opinions can always change. My opinion of 4th edition now is not the same as when the discussion began. I certainly don't feel the same about 4e as when the discussion began. By and large though you are right, most people are so entrenched in their opinions that they won't listen to what anyone else has to say, and that's too bad. Gamers have created an amazing community online, but what good is the community is information isn't a two way street? Maybe we could all do with being a bit more open minded.Labyrinthianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15566448535889913865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3777471469694473699.post-55228273577100893572010-04-21T20:47:08.193-04:002010-04-21T20:47:08.193-04:00I try not to get involved in edition wars. And I r...I try not to get involved in edition wars. And I respect the right of all to like what they like and dislike what they dislike.<br /><br />I'm really curious as to the motive behind this particular post. You start off by expressing genuine surprise that anyone would become defensive over your apparent dislike of the game three years on.<br /><br />And yet, three years on, here you are repeating the same basic points against 4th Edition that were stated three weeks in. There is nothing new here. Everything here has been said before, argued, debated, and flogged to death. I am not even arguing the validity of the points; its not worth the effort. You aren't going to try the system because you can tell you won't like it. Good for you.<br /><br />What are you trying to accomplish with this? You say you want us to believe that this site, and you, are not Anti-4th Edition. The fact is, you are. You don't like it and won't try it. That's about as Anti as you can be. But that's also just fine. Its okay to not like things.<br /><br />You say you want to start an intelligent debate? Why? What's the point? There is nothing to intelligently debate. Its a game; you like it or you don't. Point 15: The game doesn't feel right. How is any intelligent debate supposed to come out of that? <br /><br />Why is the edition war still raging after three years? Precisely because of this: tired arguments rehashed ad nauseum by people ON BOTH SIDES who won't shut up about which edition is better and just go play whatever the heck game they want.DM Simonidesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3777471469694473699.post-572730178740784292010-04-21T15:20:00.011-04:002010-04-21T15:20:00.011-04:00You state that 4e is just like WoW and then follow...You state that 4e is just like WoW and then follow it up with a statement that anyone who thinks otherwise are "engaging in a futile effort".<br /><br />For not being a review, you sure do make some pretty big and interesting comments- not to mention a very long post on the topic. <br /><br />Furthermore, you completely invalidate your entire piece in paragraph #3 by stating "...and as I said I haven’t played the game."<br /><br />This <i>looked</i> like a cool site. Thanks though.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3777471469694473699.post-31024623450213601842010-04-04T21:54:32.314-04:002010-04-04T21:54:32.314-04:00@labyrinthian
Your reasons for disliking 4E, whil...@labyrinthian<br /><br />Your reasons for disliking 4E, while I do not agree with them, are well-thought out and reasonable. (And I am not trying to be patronizing, I am tired, and can't think of a better way to put it.) I will say that 4E plays much, much better than it reads. <br /><br />I am really enjoying the discussion between you and Graham. As you said, it is rare to find a reasonable discussion covering why you dislike something (and counterpoints on why others think that you are wrong) that doesn't sink to the intellectual level of "your momma!!"<br /><br />All I can say is that 4E plays very much different than it reads. While I don't think that you will like it enough to switch your preferred systems (I think there have been too many changes to some of the basic assumptions of the system for you to be completely comfortable playing it always), I think that playing it with a group of people that you like and are having fun playing it will make a whole lot of difference.<br /><br />If you can make it to GenCon, I would try and take up Graham (or ChattyDM if he is going, or perhaps DavetheGame from criticalhits) on an offer of a game.<br /><br />Thanks again for sharing, I really do appreciate it.Marcel Beaudoinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07375241304658114691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3777471469694473699.post-36976001024329932872010-04-04T16:11:39.412-04:002010-04-04T16:11:39.412-04:00@MArcel -
Which one? The one where they say there...@MArcel -<br /><br />Which one? The one where they say there will be no 4e?<br /><br />I've never seen one (from the sounds of it, it occurred on the old forums and was lost somewhere, or something).<br /><br />Also, see my response above, as it apparently was just a community rep who said it, and not an actual WotC designer.Grahamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12920948929584729442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3777471469694473699.post-20799932359178133672010-04-04T11:14:42.415-04:002010-04-04T11:14:42.415-04:00Just out of curiosity, do you have a cite for the ...Just out of curiosity, do you have a cite for the statement by WotC?Marcel Beaudoinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07375241304658114691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3777471469694473699.post-60303227007243558062010-04-04T07:02:09.711-04:002010-04-04T07:02:09.711-04:00Well, since you asked for my answers to these poin...Well, since you asked for my answers to these points, here they are, as best I can give.<br /><br />Callin gave some great answers, too, by the way.<br /><br />My answers, however, are way too long to work in a comment format. As such, I posted them on my own blog. You can read them and comment at:<br /><br /><a href="http://criticalanklebites.com/2010/04/04/wherin-i-debate-4e-and-call-healing-surges-realistic/" rel="nofollow">http://criticalanklebites.com/2010/04/04/wherin-i-debate-4e-and-call-healing-surges-realistic/</a>Grahamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12920948929584729442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3777471469694473699.post-34045804817636020622010-04-04T07:01:03.195-04:002010-04-04T07:01:03.195-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Grahamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12920948929584729442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3777471469694473699.post-42048023700412358332010-04-03T18:50:56.702-04:002010-04-03T18:50:56.702-04:00hahaha! I love the videos you posted. That Gnome ...hahaha! I love the videos you posted. That Gnome video was really really funny. And that review was spot on. I loved it when he said, "This is not a game to be cast aside lightly. It should be thrown, and with great force!" <br /><br />Very funny... and true.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3777471469694473699.post-19928944141117288192010-04-03T18:25:21.566-04:002010-04-03T18:25:21.566-04:00@Grendelwulf - Agreed. Wizards slapped the brand ...@Grendelwulf - Agreed. Wizards slapped the brand name people would recognize on a game that has nothing to do with D&D. <br /><br />@Kevin & Scott - I don't really know what your problem is. You act like the guy has a legal obligation to play the game in order to have an opinion on it. He read it and didn't like it so why would he waste his time playing it? That makes little sense to me.WhiteTowerhttp://disgustedbeyondbelief.blogspot.com/2008/12/my-final-verdict-on-dungeons-and.htmlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3777471469694473699.post-8660815375389778322010-04-03T17:53:17.332-04:002010-04-03T17:53:17.332-04:00So, they're delusional. Or simply don't ha...So, they're delusional. Or simply don't have the backbone to call a new game a new game. Too risky marketwise, I guess. Oooh.<br /><br />I am a gamer. A customer. It's more MY call. <br /><br />They got their pound of flesh from me when I purchased 4E. Yes, I played it. Alot. It's not D&D. It is another game, but it isn't D&D. <br /><br />And don't just say, "you're not playing it right, so you don't really understand...". That argument can go right back to anyone who doesn't enjoy original D&D. When it quacks like a duck and looks like a duck, it's a duck. 4E isn't D&D. Plain & simple. <br /><br />And I do wish someone at WotC would be man enough to step up to the plate. <br /><br />And that doesn't let all of the retro-clone crowds off the hook. That's still not D&D either. <br /><br />Ciao!<br />GrendelwulfAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3777471469694473699.post-41575717864730370852010-04-03T17:39:23.107-04:002010-04-03T17:39:23.107-04:00Grendelwulf, the guys at WotC very much believe th...Grendelwulf, the guys at WotC very much believe that 4e is D&D, as do a LOT of D&D players. I'm not sure why you respect them less because they believe their game is D&D - it's FAR more their call to make than yours.Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17817454535103324280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3777471469694473699.post-68632324533309720682010-04-03T16:47:41.518-04:002010-04-03T16:47:41.518-04:00Poker is poker.
Chess is chess.
Role-playing is r...Poker is poker. <br />Chess is chess.<br />Role-playing is role-playing.<br /><br />Sure, there can be variations. Call them what they are...NEW GAMES. Different games. That's fine. <br /><br />D&D is D&D. It always was and it always will be. The same for AD&D. But when teh game diverges enough from its parental source, let it leave the nest. Let it strike out on its own. It's a new game. It's no longer D&D. <br /><br />The fact that Wizards wants to use the mantle of D&D is pure business bull. Nothing more. They have a name and are just milking it. <br /><br />I would respect them more if they just called 4E something new. Let it make its own track record. <br /><br />In the Old School days, there were many, many RPGs out there. What's wrong with that? Wizards can't have two such RPG's? If D&D goes the way of the do-do, then so be it. Let the new champion reign. <br /><br />But, obviously, it won't because the D&D shadow is a pretty long one.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3777471469694473699.post-77189741013244614072010-04-03T16:09:27.783-04:002010-04-03T16:09:27.783-04:00@Angel_Falls
Sure, that's what he's doing...@Angel_Falls<br /><br />Sure, that's what he's doing. But he could have saved a lot of time by simply writing "I don't like 4e because it's not 3e/2e/whatever." I mean, that's really what it boils down to - it doesn't matter how fun 4e really is (which, of course, he'll never know because he isn't bothering to try it out), he can't enjoy it because it's not the same game he's been playing.<br /><br />And really, Angel_Falls, a lot of the time we're completely justified in explaining that a certain individual doesn't understand 4e. A lot of people, again, come in with preconceived notions about how the game works, and those preconceived notions are incorrect. The author of this post does exactly that when he complains about healing surges. They're a solid mechanic and it's very easy to wrap your head around them once you stop conflating hit points with physical injuries.<br /><br />No one cares whether or not you like a system. But if you're going to put your opinion out there for everyone to see on the internet, expect people to dissect it. They're not telling you that you're wrong for not liking the system. They're picking your reasons apart and explaining why they think they're bad reasons.Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17817454535103324280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3777471469694473699.post-8943750113313569272010-04-03T15:34:45.501-04:002010-04-03T15:34:45.501-04:00@Angel_Falls:
It is fine for someone to dislike a...@Angel_Falls:<br /><br />It is fine for someone to dislike a system. What I don't like about this post is that the author admits himself that all he did was read parts of the core rulebooks 2 years ago and his basing all of his opinions of the system on that. He has never actually played 4e. <br /><br />@ everyone:<br />Also, a lot of people who play 4e (and D&D in general, including 3.5 and pathfinder and all the rest) don't know how to bring their character and the campaign to life. This has nothing to do with system, this has everything to do with people's perception of the game. I regularly play in 2 4e games, and we have living, breathing characters and we role-play constantly. <br />D&D has NEVER been about playing by-the-book, it has ALWAYS been about taking what you like from the rulebooks and having fun with it. Everything that you like about playing with other editions, like role-playing and exploration and gritty, harsh adventures can be accomplished with 4e. You just have to be not-lazy enough to not depend on rules and dice rolls to dictate your role-playing.Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02060278937479739737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3777471469694473699.post-924059727355591812010-04-03T15:32:42.324-04:002010-04-03T15:32:42.324-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02060278937479739737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3777471469694473699.post-91929145577312514282010-04-03T14:51:30.895-04:002010-04-03T14:51:30.895-04:00Interesting read.
For me, 4e is a good game but i...Interesting read.<br /><br />For me, 4e is a good game but it is not the game I want to play and it is not the direction I wanted to see D&D go in. But it has, so, I play Pathfinder instead.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3777471469694473699.post-84849944778742983542010-04-03T14:06:17.235-04:002010-04-03T14:06:17.235-04:00"But, then again, if all you care about is si..."But, then again, if all you care about is similarity, why not just keep playing that original game? You can't get any more similar than identical."<br /><br />It sounds like that is what he is doing. <br /><br />I can't stand 4th edition. Yes, I am judging based on previous editions. Just as I judge it based on other systems. That's how you find a system you like by comparing all the systems available and picking the one you like best. I'm getting pretty sick of 4th edition fans complaining that people "don't understand 4th edition" and that's why they don't like it or something to that effect. I play Hackmaster 4th ed. because that is the best game in my opinion. I understand D&D 4e but I just don't like it. I don't know why people have a problem with that. When did it become a problem for someone to dislike a system? Not everyone likes the same thing and that fact is good for the gaming industry as a whole.Angel_Fallsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3777471469694473699.post-1514342952716659082010-04-03T13:10:04.879-04:002010-04-03T13:10:04.879-04:00Callin has the most thoughtful response on here.
...Callin has the most thoughtful response on here.<br /><br />A bit of advice to anyone taking a look at 4th Edition: don't use your previous experience with the game as a rubric - that is to say, don't take the approach that the game is only as good as its similarity to earlier editions of the game. Asking yourself "Is this more fun than 3e/2e/whatever?" is totally fine.<br /><br />It's unfortunate that the author of the post does exactly what I'm warning against here: criticisms 1, 2, 3, 3 #2, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 and 15 all contain elements of this (or, in many cases, are based completely on this). In fact, the only criticism leveled at the game that DOESN'T have anything to do with previous editions is 14 (combat focus), which makes perfect sense because the previous editions of the game (3e especially) provided less in the way of roleplaying encouragement than 4e does - between codified XP rewards for quests and social interactions, skill challenges, rituals, backgrounds, and page 42 (to list only a handful), no DM will feel starved for ways to encourage roleplaying.<br /><br />If the way you judge a new edition of a game is how similar it is to the games that came before, 4e will disappoint you. But, then again, if all you care about is similarity, why not just keep playing that original game? You can't get any more similar than identical.Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17817454535103324280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3777471469694473699.post-90563627839758129472010-04-03T11:12:11.063-04:002010-04-03T11:12:11.063-04:00Callin: Did you just compare D&D to pro wrestl...Callin: Did you just compare D&D to pro wrestling???! <br /><br />Not cool.<br /><br />I like that the original post and the comments thus far have been civil and fair. None of this "everything suckz!" or "everything rulz" nonsense. I personally don't like 4th edition and it isnt for me, but that doesnt mean it isnt a perfectly good for someone else to play and have fun with. Id rather people played that than played nothing at all!AmonSuulnoreply@blogger.com